Don Jose’s Rogue Leveling Advice

Ahoy! I am Don Jose#9643, one of the moderators of the Ravenholdt Discord community. With the release of allied races and the revamp of the level-up experience (increased mob hp, zone scaling, higher xp requirements to level, etc.) we’ve been fielding a lot of questions about the level-up experience for rogues. This document is a TL;DR “guide” of 1-90. Bear in mind this content is purely my opinion.

During the level-up experience rogues lack real AoE tools until level 63 and are strongest in 1v1 situations. You want to use Sap, Blind, Cheap Shot, and Gouge to try and even the odds if you find yourself facing a 2 or 3 pull. Even at level 63, your energy regeneration might not be enough to solidly sustain AoE. Begin combat from Stealth whenever possible, and remember that you won’t get Vanish until level 48. Bummer.

My pick for a leveling spec:

  1. #1: Subtlety
  2. #2: Outlaw (at level 22 w/Ambush)
  3. I would not level as Assassination.


15: Gloomblade or Master of Subtlety (see Advice below)
30: Nightstalker
45: Vigor
60: Soothing Darkness
75: Strike from the Shadows
90: Dark Shadow (burst) usually, or Enveloping Shadows (tough mobs)

Fantastic burst
Great passive self-heals and healing between pulls
Superior mobility
Fast play
Against 2+ mobs, Shadow Dance gives you another burst/stealth phase.
At level 42 Shadowstrike ports you to your target – great mobility!

Against mighty mobs, might fall behind Assassination or Outlaw
Backstab is often weak while soloing unless you waste time stunning/controlling mobs

In my opinion, Subtlety is the most versatile and fun leveling spec. It has great burst and mobility. If mobs survive your initial burst, Gloomblade will be the best option, as you likely won’t be able to Backstab them without juggling CCs-all of which is a waste of time if you could just kill them with a Gloomblade.

15: Quick Draw
30: Hit and Run. Grappling Hook has a lot of pathing issues, but if you’re in flat areas it’s probably more useful.
45: Vigor
60: Iron Stomach
75: Any, but I preferred Dirty Tricks
90: Killing Spree for solo, Cannonball Barrage for dungeons

Great at slowing runners (Pistol Shot, Between the Eyes)
Ranged stun with Between the Eyes
Sustained damage
Superior ranged if necessary (Pistol Shot/Between the Eyes)
Grappling Hook is solid mobility if pathing issues don’t occur (flat terrain)
Bribe is awesome if it works

Overall inferior mobility – Outlaw rogues have to talent Grappling Hook – Assassination and Subtlety get Shadowstep baseline
Crimson Vial is a reliable on-demand heal, but costs energy. All three specs have Crimson Vial, but the other two have additional healing options (Leeching Poison/Soothing Darkness)
Inferior burst to Subtlety
Generally “slow” play until Roll the Bones at level 40, and then play becomes RNG-based

You want to be sure to Ambush from stealth and use Saber Slash to get to a 5 combo point Run Through. Only use Pistol Shot for its slow or on Opportunity procs (free use). Use Between the Eyes as a stun or a ranged hit. Use/abuse Bribe at level 54; this can actually be a mighty tool! Once you unlock Roll the Bones, maintain a buff as much as possible, but don’t waste energy re-rolling.

15: Master Poisoner – this boosts Leeching Poison (see level 60)
30: Nightstalker for speed or 1v1 or Subterfuge for strong mobs and 1v2/3
45: Vigor
60: Leeching Poison
75: Any, depending on your playstyle
90: Toxic Blade

Heavy DoT damage can serve as prolonged AoE
Has decent mobility with Shadowstep
Can DoT from ranged

Too much damage is reliant on DoTs
Energy regeneration is reliant on DoTs
No Envenom until level 36
Mutilate starves you for energy at lower levels

If you insist on leveling as Assassination, wait until level 36 for Envenom.

A note about Dungeons:
At the time of writing this, I haven’t tried low level dungeons since the changes hit, but I’ve heard that they now take longer and yield less XP than questing, on average. If you opt to run dungeons, know that your trash damage is going to be less than many other specs. As Assassination you can experiment with multi-dotting mobs, but overall you will probably just do better focusing on one target at a time. Your time to shine is against bosses. At level 63 this may pick up significantly. If you have experience with the 63-100 level range let me know!


Class Discords: The Basics

In the past, websites, forums, and IRC were the primary sources of information about World of Warcraft, along with word-of-mouth. When Discord launched it quickly became the go-to resource for game communities. There was no manual–we were all pioneers as users and leaders of the platform. Over the past year we have learned a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of Discord as a chat client that is different/unique from anything that came before it.

Recently there has been a lot of discussion amongst the Ravenholdt moderation team as to how we could improve, and how class Discords in general could improve. I decided to write this guide because there is still a large volume of users that plunge into the deep end of Discord and are overwhelmed. They don’t know the basics and standards across Discords–and, in some cases, there aren’t standards–and feel nervous about asking for help or don’t understand how to find the information they need. On the flipside, the community feels exhausted (especially around patch/ptr update days) by the sheer volume of identical questions they get every day.

In this guide I will attempt to educate you on the baseline tools to have a good Discord experience. I will do my best to keep this brief. You need to bear in mind that each class server has its own rules, expectations, and organization, which I will get into later.

You poor, poor souls…

Welcome to Discord. I will be your guide.

Ahoy! I am Don Jose#9643 and I am one of the moderators of the Ravenholdt Discord community; in addition, I have leveled all classes to 110 and at least lurk the majority of other class Discords. I consider myself a casual player because although I do raid, I do not push high M+ keys or compete in any Mythic Raid races. Anybody who knows me or hangs out in Ravenholdt knows that I love helping players, memes, and generally hate RNG.

Note: I welcome all constructive criticism (spare me the “lol ur guide sux” DMs, thanks) and suggestions. You are free to spread this guide to all corners of the Intarwebz; in fact, I encourage it. We are all a part of Discord and how the communities will function and feel.

“A BETTER COMMUNITY STARTS WITH THE SELF.-Me, 2k17 and probably other inspiring/important people

Joining a Discord Community

Discord has a ​web client​ (opened in your web browser), a ​mobile app​, and a desktop client (​you download and run it like software). The Web Client and PC Client are more or less interchangeable, but the mobile app does have some important differences that I’ll mention where appropriate. This guide is intended to be relatively TL;DR: so I’m not going to walk you through all the functionality of them. If you need/want more information, head to discord’s website: ​

To join a Discord community, you will need a link to that specific server community.

Links generally look like this:

(note the “” in the URL. Beware of false URLs!)

Or like this:

Or like this:


The majority of users will get invitations from guildies, friends, or forums.

Check the Channels

On the left side of the web and desktop clients, you will see that server’s channel list. These are the organizational ​topics of discussion​. Keep in mind that these are generally suggestions; players will often go off-topic. That’s one difference between a Discord server and a forum: these are living, breathing, real-time chats that move quickly.

Let’s use Ravenholdt as an example:

At the top, you’ll see the server you are currently on.

FOR MOBILE USERS:​ On the ​mobile app, ​channels are listed when you hit the top left ​=​ button​.



Below that, you can see channel headers (note the “PLEASE READ” over our #announcements and #resources-and-faq channels)



Spec Discussion – Check Pins

I’ll talk about pins soon. They are ​very important to universal discord use. If a Discord server has class or spec channels, ​that is not a guarantee that discussion will always be on-topic. This varies from server to server. Sometimes it’s just where players of that spec congregate.



If a server has a “general” or “off-topic” tab they are often less strictly moderated and feature random discussion topics.




How individual servers word these channels will be different, but they all have them.​ You are responsible for the rules of the server, whether you read them or not. ​If you are ever confused or unclear about the rules, send a direct message to a moderator by right-clicking their name and selecting “message.” This is called ​Direct Messaging​, or “DMing.”

Familiarize Yourself with the Mod Team

Every discord has moderators. They are always listed at or near the top of the user list, which can be found on the right of the screen.

Again, using Ravenholdt as an example:

You can open or close the member list using the “People” icon, circled. It’s usually open by default. This is the same button/placement on the MOBILE APP.

Sometimes moderators have hierarchies with various titles. In Ravenholdt, our founders and team-leaders have purple names and are referred to (lovingly) as “Despots”.





Many servers have bots. I’m not going to get into them because they vary greatly in functionality and control–but they’re usually there to automate things like Raidbots simming, role/color requests, and so on.


Our moderators are are referred to (equally lovingly) as “Shadowblades”.

It me!



Moderation from server to server varies a lot, but in general, they are there to keep the peace, enforce rules, and be a resource for information (or somebody who can point you to the correct resource). Treat them with respect and you will have it returned, 9.9 / 10 times.

A Note: All mods are not around 24/7. They are volunteers, unpaid (as far as I’m aware), and they are not your personal helpdesk. Please consult the FAQs and the Pinned Messages before you reach out to them about game questions. If you see harassment, or feel like something wrong has occurred in the Discord chat, reach out to them with your concerns immediately. Do not escalate situations. As a final reminder, each Discord server operates independently. What might be considered harassment on Ravenholdt might be totally acceptable on another, so long as it doesn’t violate Discord’s TOS.

Check the Pinned Messages 

If you’ve already gone on Discord you have likely seen push pin emojis and seen people saying “check the pins,” or; “it’s in the pins,” and so on.

What are “the pins?”

They will vary from server to server, but generally they are ​the most important, up-to-date, and relevant/frequently-asked questions and guides.

FOR MOBILE USERS: The pins are located behind the ​“…” button in the top right corner of the server.

Note how when you open the pins in #outlaw I have listed relevant links to the guides, as well as a post about the current tier set and an external link to a post about UI Lag Tolerance.

Each channel (such as #outlaw or #pvp) will have its ​own​ pinned messages.


​ You are going to get meme’d into orbit if you join a Class Discord and ask a pinned question (ie. a question that is answered in a pinned message). The “regulars” of ​any community see it happen tens of hundreds of times per day, and it gets really old, really fast, to give the same answer over and over. ​That’s why pinned messages exist. You are not the first person with your question and you will not be the last.

Imagine being a retail clerk and there’s a sign on your counter that says, “Restrooms are to the left,” but hundreds of times per day customers come in and ask you, “Where are the restrooms?” when you’re busy helping another customer. It’s a similar situation! There’s nothing wrong with having questions, but when you don’t put in that minimum of work/research yourself you just look lazy and entitled.

Why am I being told to ‘Sim It’ or ‘Sim Yourself’? 

​TL;DR​: WoW is a complex game. Legion, in particular, introduced a lot of factors which make it difficult to tell if X talent, gear piece, etc. is superior. Running fight simulations (“simming”) is one of the best tools we have to try and get a more data-driven, accurate answer. WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU IS NOT BEST FOR EVERYONE. Simming is the “most-honest” answer. When people tell you this they aren’t trying to “just get rid of you,” they’re trying to be honest with you and help you get the best answer.

How do I sim? 

Sim-yourself​ is a guide to using SimC (SimulationCraft) which is a powerful but somewhat complicated tool that runs thousands of simulated fights to try and determine your performance (and from that, what is better or worse for you).

If that is intimidating or too complicated, there are alternatives:

  1. ​Raidbots runs SimC with a newbie-friendly user interface.
  2. Ask Mr. Robot, aka. AMR, runs their own simulator​ ​with a newbie-friendly user interface.

How do I become a ‘regular’?   ​

Hang out on a server a lot. Be generally respectful. Don’t brag unless you’ve got logs to back you up (and even still, don’t brag, that’s annoying). Help out others. Have some fun, meme around a little. Have you ever joined a new friend group? It’s like that. Don’t be obnoxious, respect that some of these people have known each other for years, and you will eventually be included into the recognizable community figures/leaders/scallywags.

Why is it so chaotic/spammy? People seem really cranky!

​The chances are overwhelming that you logged on to the Discord after a ​big announcement, PTR datamine, or patch notes​. During those times the traffic to class Discords surges tremendously, and things get absolutely wild. Don’t judge the server by those days. Mods will have their hands full and there will be a LOT of people spamming the same questions over and over. Don’t be that person.

Other Resources:

Hero Damage: ​A website dedicated to the most current trinket, talent, relic, and gear simulations. It’s a great resource to check if you just looted a trinket or relic and have ​no idea if it’s an upgrade or not.

Ravenholdt: It’s my guide, so I get to plug the rogue website/resource. Ravenholdt is a go-to for various rogue-related content, but also has other guides such as the simming guide I linked above.

Class and Community Discord Links:

Community Discord Servers:  A list of links to the current class discord servers.  If your server is missing from that list please contact Wowhead to have yours added.



The Portrayal of “Rogue” in the World of the Warcraft Film

Garona and Garona

Please note that this blog contains spoilers for Christie Golden’s wonderful Warcraft movie prequel, Warcraft: Durotan, as well as minor spoilers for the upcoming World of Warcraft expansion, Legion.

Garona. We know her as the consummate assassin. In the World of Warcraft that we live in, it is she who slew King Llane Wrynn, albeit against her will, with the blades Sorrow and Anguish. It is she, driven by revenge, who aids us in finding Cho’gall in Twilight Highlands. It is she, albeit an alternative universe version of her, who ambushes us in Frostfire Ridge, attempts to assassinate Khadgar, and ultimately befriends us in Warlords of Draenor. It is she who bequeaths us her ill-used blades in Legion if we select to have our Artifact Weapons be for Assassination. And it is now she who is front and center in the previews for the film, Warcraft. With the film still a few weeks away from release, we can’t know yet that we will recognize what we know as Assassination Rogue in her actions, but we do have the prequel novel, Warcraft: Durotan, and we can look within its pages to see how rogues fare in this telling of the story.

Garona and the first assassination are introduced early in the novel, however it is not Garona who wields the deadly blade. Gul’dan, her master, tricks Garad into effectively assassinating himself with a poisoned dagger, but the Assassination class icons are right there: the dagger and the poison. Although passive, she still exhibits cunning and her initial communication in Draenei was effectively stealthed as she communicates with Draka in a language that Gul’dan cannot understand. Her role in the novel is a small one, and despite the Assassination class icons making an appearance, we don’t have a great deal to reconcile with the in-game rogue or even the in-game Garona. We would probably be better served to wait for the film and its novelization to discuss her as a class representative.

The concept of Class with its rules, structures, and limitations is a conceit of the game and while seemingly not overtly represented in the world of the novel, can still be discerned in key characters. Class archetypes are obviously represented, for example, in Drek’Thar the shaman, Gul’dan the warlock, and Orgrim the warrior to name a few. Garona’s limited role may not allow us much of a glimpse of our class, but are there other places that we can look to to find rogues. While hunters and warriors, as well as shaman are well depicted among the Frostwolves, rogues don’t seem to be present. They can, however be seen in the novel’s Red Walkers. The Red Walkers exhibit several very roguelike traits: not only do they attack from concealment, for example ambushing Durotan and his comrades at the Seat of the Spirits, but the Red Walker that Durotan faces first in the final battle of the novel dual-wields small axes and seems more reliant on speed and agility than strength.

Perhaps the best representation of the rogue class can be found in the Red Walker chieftain who faces off with Orgrim. He is described as wearing “only the barest scraps of armor,” somewhat like in-game rogues who cannot be burdened with armor heavier than leather. In behavior also typical of the in-game rogue, he kicks an opponent to subdue her, and, much like his unfortunate aforementioned clansmember who was dispatched by Durotan, he wields two axes “so swiftly they were blurs.” This imagery is iconic of the Combat (now Outlaw) rogue: the double one-handed weapons and the swift, relentless attacks. One could even make an argument that he uses Vendetta (although it is an Assassination ability) or is talented into Marked for Death as he makes his way towards Orgrim across the melee, “his head swiveling back again and again to check Orgrim’s location.”

This version of the world may not be as structured and rule-bound as the game that we are used to, but Christie Golden’s masterful storytelling and complete understanding of the workings of the game gives us glimpses of what we know and who we are, and allows the world a familiarity beyond location and lore. Warcraft: Durotan is a different take on the story from what we know, but it is a compelling and well-told tale, and very much worth a read. Just as Warlords of Draenor offered us a look at an alternative version of the universe, the film world gives us another. In this universe, while events are familiar, details are very different. We can only hope that Garona the rogue will get as fine a treatment in the upcoming film as Durotan and the Frostwolves get in this novel. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, how this paragon of the Assassination rogue is portrayed, and whether will will witness our future blades, Sorrow and Anguish, on the big screen before we officially get to wield them ourselves. Dare we hope for more rogues like the Red Walkers? Will we witness this new version of the world and recognize in it, ourselves?

Image: In-game Garona vs. On-screen Garona. Paula Patton as Garona in the film from Legendary Pictures.



Rogues Doing Good: Accomp

Rogues are often reviled as masters of deception and cheap tricks, that shadow that ganks you from stealth, that master of the shadowstep and the stun lock. Not all rogues are bad, however. In fact, though we say it ourselves, rogues are some of the nicest and most generous people we have ever met. Case in point, Accomp. Accomp is a member of the Convert to Raid mega guild on Aerie Peak. The requirement to acquire Reins of the Grove Warden (aka. the moose mount) is a Heroic or Mythic Archimonde kill, and Accomp rallied his mythic raid team, Convert to Mythic, and offered a carry to any member of Convert to Raid who wanted it. I was lucky enough to be able to accompany them on the night that they got that moose for their 100th guild member and I asked Accomp a little about what they are doing.

Please tell us a bit about yourself:

Well, I’m Accomp – Dwarf Rogue, guide writer and web developer here in North Carolina. I raid lead for the Convert to Mythic team in the Convert to Raid guild family on Aerie Peak [A]. I started out as a Holy Paladin back in December 2004, but swapped to my Rogue during Wrath launch and never looked back.

What exactly is #ConvertToMoose and how does it work?

#ConvertToMoose is the brainchild of Pat Krane and the Convert to Raid podcast crew. They wanted to get together a group of geared folks in the guild and help out the lesser geared or more casual players we have acquire their Moose mounts via Heroic Archimonde kills. We’ve got a pool of 36 geared players who have offered to help out every Sunday and we help 6-8 Convert to Raid guild members for each of the 4 Heroic Archimonde kills, with Personal Loot, we complete over the course of an hour and a half. We aren’t taking people’s gold and haven’t enforced any form of gear requirement other than being a level 100 toon in the Convert to Raid guild family. Honestly, we just wanted to do something positive for the community.

Why did you decide to do this?

With the inspiration of Pat and crew’s concept, I saw an opportunity to leverage my raid team’s current inactive status. We decided to take a break from Mythic raiding back at the beginning of October due to attendance/recruiting issues. We have approximately 5,200 unique accounts in the Convert to Raid guild family, so the potential to give back to the community was quite high. So while being able to give back and help the CTR community, we’re also able to stick together as a raid team until we can dive back into Legion testing when the time comes.

Was your team on board right away or did they take some convincing?

Surprisingly enough, nearly everyone on the team was immediately on board. I think we maybe had 2-3 out of the 21 on our roster that weren’t interested, which I was really proud to see. Once you start getting into Mythic progression, it’s easy to loose sight of the more casual players in the game and forget that you were there at one point in time. Our Convert to Mythic team continues to impress me, not only with their performance, but with their selflessness each week as they continue to give back to the community without ever asking anything in return. Cheers to each of them!

How many sign ups do you have?

So we’ve got 36 geared folks signed up (730+ ilvl) to help out each week and 432 CTR guild members signed up to be helped before we decided to disable the signup form for the time being to allow us to catch up. Currently, one month into doing the Moose runs, we’ve helped out a total of 102 CTR guild members and plan to continue to raise that number after the new year!

Can people still sign up?

Currently, we’ve got the signup form disabled for our #ConvertToMoose runs, mostly because of the extremely high demand and not wanting to get overwhelmed. We’ll consider re-enabling signups once we have a chance to catch up and make a larger dent in our existing signup list after the new year. With that said, there are definitely other teams, both in the CTR guild community and outside of it, that you could reach out to if you were looking to get some help with your Moose. The most notable is probably #FriendshipMoose. Please note, some of these groups may have a gear requirement, so just be sure to read their details first, so you know!

What kind of response have you had from the community?

The feedback so far has been absolutely amazing – even from folks outside of the CTR guild community. I don’t think any of us realized the impact this would have on the community and it’s definitely made everything worth it. Most of all, I appreciate everyone’s patience as we try to work our way through our rather lengthy list of signups and also a huge shout out to those outside of the CTR guild community who have helped out on nights our geared team was short on attendance.

Would you like to tell us a bit about CtR?

Sure! The Convert to Raid guild is an Alliance guild on Aerie Peak, founded in Jan 2013. We’ve got a handful of guilds linked together via the Greenwall addon. We’ve got over 5,200 unique accounts with players and raid teams of all varieties, with a focus on “Community, Teamwork and Respect.” Whether you’re a Mythic raider or a more casual LFR player, there’s a good chance you’ll find like-minded folks to play with. The guild was created as a community hub for the Convert to Raid podcast, which started back in June 2011. Give the show a listen and come join up with the community!

Thank you, Accomp and all of the mythic raiders who are helping so many people get this mount. This is an awesome act of kindness for those who wouldn’t have the resources to do this on their own – it truly is an example of our World of Warcraft community working right.

If you would be interested in joining the Convert to Mythic raid team, Accomp tells me that they are recruiting for Legion Mythic US progression on a two night schedule. This is a great opportunity to jump on board with a lovely, civic-minded progression team. Apply at: Convert to Mythic.

Merry Winter Veil everyone!

Follow Accomp on Twitter at @Accomp
Follow Convert to Raid on Twitter at @CtRGuild
Convert to Raid website:
Convert to Mythic website:



Better Roguing Through Macros

Using effective macros can increase your efficiency and effectiveness, as well as make you a few extra gold. The following are a few “must have” macros for any serious PvE rogue and a few “don’t leave home without it” macros for any rogue.


Weapon Swap Macro

Weapon swapping as part of the Combat rogue rotation. It’s a thing.

The Macro:

#showtooltip Blade Flurry
/equipset [equipped: dagger] Combat; Cleave
/cast [noequipped: dagger] Blade Flurry
/cancelaura [equipped: dagger] Blade Flurry

What does it do?

This macro equips a dagger in your main hand when you turn Blade Flurry on, and re-equips your slow weapons when you turn Blade flurry off.

Why do I want it?

Hopefully this macro won’t be needed for much longer, but as things stand Combat rogues can gain a substantial DPS increase by swapping to having a dagger in their main hand for AoE situations. Note that depending on the number of targets that you are facing and how long they are likely to live, you may not want to swap weapons. You should keep an unmacroed version of Blade Flurry handy for those occasions.

More information:

Where is it useful?

In any situation where you will be doing cleave or AoE damage.

Set up:

This particular macro needs a little bit of setup:

  1. Save your regular Combat gear set. You can name it anything you like. I am calling mine “Combat.”
  2. With your regular Combat gear set equipped, create a new gear set. I am calling this additional gear set “Cleave.”
  3. Move your best slow weapon (sword, mace, or axe) into your off hand. If all else is equal, pick one with Multistrike. A current excellent choice is Hans’gar’s Forgehammer in as Mythic and Warforged a form as you can manage.
  4. Equip your best dagger into your main hand. If all else is equal, pick one with Multistrike. A current excellent choice is Oregorger’s Acid-Etched Gutripper in as Mythic and Warforged a form as you can manage.
  5. Save your new gear set.
  6. Create the macro – be sure to replace “Combat” and “Cleave” with the names of your gear sets.
  7. Use the macro in place of Blade Flurry.

Note: If Blade Flurry and your gear set get out of sync, click the macro to reset it. This can happen if you die with Blade Flurry on.

Credit for this awesome little macro goes to Wavefunctionp.


Talent Swapping Macro

Do you switch between talents and then have to remember to change your bars? I know I do – especially with Burst of Speed and Shadowstep. This handy little macro switches out the button on your bar for you.

The Macro:

/cast [talent:4/1] Cloak and Dagger; [talent:4/2] Shadowstep; [talent:4/3] Burst of Speed

What does it do?

This macro changes your button to reflect the talent that you have selected from a specific talent tier.

Why do I want it?

Switching a talent that requires a button press and forgetting to switch your button out sucks.

Where is it useful?

Any time you switch out a talent that requires a button press.

Set up:

The macro as written is set up for tier 4 talents. Just use it in place of Cloak and Dagger, Shadowstep, and Burst of Speed. You could conceivably set it up for tiers 6 and 7 as well. Just switch “4” to “6” or “7” and switch the talent names appropriately.


Secondary Target Interrupt Macro

Sometimes you just need to kick someone you aren’t actively stabbing.


Version 1

/cast [@focus] Kick

Version 2

#showtooltip Kick
/cast Kick

What does it do?

This macro allows you to interrupt a target other than your main target, as long as it is in melee range. If you have Deadly Throw talented, you can add it in and use this at range but note that with Deadly Throw, the interrupt only works with 5 combo points so you need to make sure you have those stored up.

Why do I want it?

Sometimes you want to focus down one target while keeping another interrupted.

Where is it useful?

The Admiral Gar’an Dreadnaught phase in the Iron Maidens fight in Blackrock Foundry is a good example of this. In that fight you want to focus down Uktar while not allowing Battle Medic Rogg to cast Earthen Barrier.

Set up

For version 1, you need to set the intended target of your interrupt as your focus.

For version 2, you need to know the name of the intended target of your interrupt and hard code it in. Replace “TARGETNAME” in the macro with the name of the interrupt target.


Rotation Macros


In some cases macroing cooldowns together can smooth out your rotation, making sure you use the cooldowns as often as possible with fewer button pushes.

If you are an Assassination or Subtlety specced rogue and have selected Shadow Reflection as your level 100 talent, you can use the one of the following macros:

For Assassination:

#showtooltip Vendetta
/cast Shadow Reflection
/cast Vendetta

Note that in this macro, Shadow Reflection is cast before Vendetta. This is important as it allows your reflection to cast its own version of Vendetta.

For Subtlety:

#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Reflection
/cast Shadow Dance

In this macro the order in which you cast Shadow Reflection and Shadow Dance does not matter.


If you have an on-use trinket, you can macro it to a cooldown in much the same way as you do when you are macroing cooldowns together. You can call the trinket by name but it is much easier to instruct the macro to just use gear slot that the trinket is occupying. Your upper trinket is in gear slot 13 and your lower trinket is in gear slot 14.

The following is a basic example using Killing Spree. If you want to macro your trinket to a different ability (Adrenaline Rush, Vendetta, Shadow Dance, etc.) just replace “Killing Spree” with the name of your chosen ability.

#showtooltip Killing Spree
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Killing Spree

Note that if you want to add a trinket to the Vendetta/Shadow Reflection macro, you will want to make sure that you use the trinkets after you cast Shadow Reflection so that your reflection can take advantage of them as well.

#showtooltip Vendetta
/cast Shadow Reflection
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Vendetta

Note that if you are an Engineer with all those wonderful toys, you can create macros to hotkey them using the same method. The gear slots that you may need for these are:

  • Hat: /use 1
  • Belt: /use 6
  • Boots: /use 8
  • Cloak: /use 15


Macro Tips for New Rogues

Veteran rogues will probably already know these sneaky tricks!

Pick Pocket

If you macro Pick Pocket to your stealth opener and crowd control abilities, you can always pick at least one pocket, even if you are in a hurry. This is a basic way to make a little extra gold without even thinking about it.

The following macro will pick your target’s pocket before you Ambush. If you are using a different stealth opener (Cheap Shot, Garrote, etc.), replace “Ambush” with the name of your chosen ability.

#showtooltip Ambush
/cast Pick Pocket
/cast Ambush

The following macro will pick your target’s pocket when you use Sap.

#showtooltip Sap
/cast Sap
/cast Pick Pocket

Tricks of the Trade

If you are in a group and you are concerned about pulling aggro off your tank, you can create a quick Tricks of the Trade macro. Here are a couple of easy ones that work in the same way as the interrupt macros above.

Version 1

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/cast [@focus] Tricks of the Trade

Version 2

#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/cast [@TANKNAME] Tricks of the Trade

For version 1, you need to set your tank as your focus.

For version 2, replace “TANKNAME” in the macro with the name of your tank.


Got a favorite macro? Tell us on the forums.


I Ain’t Afraid o’ No Sub – or how I learned to stop worrying and love Subtlety

A few weeks ago, in a conversation between Fierydemise, Haileaus, and myself, Fierydemise posited that the single best thing that an Assassination rogue could do for his/her raid team would be to forget optimizing and instead take that time to learn Subtlety. He suggested that the half hour that might be spent on messing with gems and enchantments would be better spent reading up on Subtlety and switching specs. Haileaus and I were both a little dubious on this and felt that there would be a bit of a learning curve to Subtlety that might cancel out any advantage. We all agreed that to only way to know for sure would be to test. Since I just don’t do Subtlety, I volunteered to lab rat.

What I did:
I switched my Assassination spec to Subtlety. I spent exactly half an hour prepping. And then I went to raid. It was an interesting and humbling experience and my conclusion is, much to my surprise, that we are really both right. I do think that there is enough to Fierydemise’s theory that I, an Assassination-lifer, will keep the Subtlety spec for now at least.

Weeee 26k!

Was I perfect? Heck no! I’d been doing this for less than an hour, including setup time.

The Details:

  • I carefully did no research or reading on Subtlety prior to this so all I knew was what was in my memory from trying it back in Cataclysm – which is to say, nothing useful.
  • At 6:02 pm I went to the trainer and switched to Subtlety.
  • I went to Wowhead and read over the Subtlety rotation section of the very pretty rogue guide.
  • I then went to the Ravenholdt guide for Talents, Glyphs, multi-target rotation, and all of the finer details.
  • I set up my bars.
  • I set up a few macros (eg. macroing Shadow Reflection to Shadow Dance).
  • I went to the training dummies just to make sure that my buttons were in usable places and that I hadn’t forgotten any.
  • I did not touch my gear. My main gear was currently optimized for Combat and I switched out a few pieces when I went to Assassination – so it was a sort of hybrid setup. I had a two piece but not a four piece set.
  • I did not touch my addons. I do run SliceCommander and it was already set up to track Slice and Dice and Rupture.
  • At 6:32 I stopped messing with my spec. I even switched back to Combat to do my mine, and slaughtered the wee beasties with gleeful Killing Sprees so that I would have no additional practice or time to absorb what buttons were where.
  • At 8:00 I went to raid. We did Heroic Hans’gar and Franzok (1 attempt as Subtlety then switched to Combat for the kill), Gruul, and Oregorger.

The Subtlety rotation is a whole lot less complicated than I was expecting. Significantly so. I realized that I had been pretty intimidated by it – and needlessly. I was remembering the last time I tried it, when Shadow Dance was a separate stance and the bars were a pain in the …neck to set up.

The positional requirement for Backstab is annoying – especially since I’m out of practice taking that into consideration. It’s not that bad on most bosses, but on trash when the mobs are all milling about any which way or on Hans’gar and Franzok when the bosses are bouncing around like jumping beans, it’s seriously inconvenient.

Much to my surprise, the Backstab icon being the same as the Dispatch icon really bugged me. A couple of times my brain actually hesitated and said, “No you idiot, don’t Dispatch now!” Apparently I’m really visually oriented. Who knew!

Hans’gar and Franzok: the rotation wasn’t bad but I found it a bit difficult to concentrate on a brand new (to me) rotation with all the movement. Knowing that the boss is fine for all three specs, I switched to Combat after we wiped.
Gruul: I had no trouble pulling top dps early on. It fell off a bit over time as movement increased but I really feel that with a bit of practice I can kick butt as Subtlety on this boss.
Oregorger: same impression as Gruul.

The Takeaway:
Subtlety has a bad reputation for being complex and difficult to master. My experience suggested that it is no more difficult than either Assassination or Combat. With all three specs the mastery is in the timing. Getting Subtlety’s subtleties right is probably no more difficult than controlling Insight optimally is for Combat.

Overall, yes, I think Fierydemise is right. I am surprised and happy to admit that my reservations were unfounded. I do think that Haileaus and I were correct in that it will take a bit more practice to see a really significant difference and to get comfortable with more movement while maintaining numbers – but it really was less of a big deal than I was expecting. With a little more practice, it will be a significant improvement. If anyone is thinking about making the switch, I’d maintain that Subtlety is no more complicated than Combat. It takes a little bit more focus between the positional requirement and no coffee break while you Killing Spree, but it is a not a stretch at all.

If you are on the fence about trying Subtlety, I say go for it. If I can do it, you can do it.



The Mythic Rogue: To Sit or Not to Sit?

[EDITOR’S NOTE 1/7/15: The “FOOT IN MOUTH EDIT” section immediately below was written by Aeriwen on Jan. 6 and added to the top of this post at his request.]


TLDR: There was an error. Only about one rogue on average is being brought to mythic difficulty.
Moving into week 3, it was clear that the rogue numbers were still unusually high. After getting a correction from the developer of World of Wargraphs on his representation data, we now had second measure to check ours against. It shows that rogues with 1+ Mythic kills at 5.3%, and total rep at 6.2% (which is in close agreement with realmpop data), which indicates underrepresentation. After a bit of discussion on the #ravenholdt chat, vipbrj was able to correct the data. The error, which I admit should have been obvious, was that the data was missing healers and tanks from the calculations. I wish to thank Pathal, Fierydemise, and Vipbrj for their help in tracking down this error.
The numbers below are incorrect, and without healer and tank data from those weeks it isn’t possible to correct them. The article has been left intact for discussion purposes, but the numbers are wrong, and references to high representation are wrong. If you wish to read a fuller account, please see my posts on the official forums, and the edited OP.
A little over a week ago I posted in the official WoW rogue forum about mythic rogue representation. There was, and still is, a bit of concern over the topic of rogues being sat in mythic. The previous post is here.

I began by demonstrating that at least some very high end guilds were employing rogues for progression. But that wasn’t the focus of the topic which I wanted to address. The meat of the argument was that the general mythic population was utilizing rogues at a reasonable representation. There were concerns with my data, notably by the most respectable Fierydemise, that the later fights were harder and require more optimization to complete at the present gear levels and thus rogues were likely to be more of a liability going further into the tier, as most have only touched the “easy” bosses at that time. The point is a notable one, and still a point of concern, as you will see.

The crux of our “disagreement” depends on what is the most important behavior to which we should be concerned. Should we look at only what the top guilds are doing exactly when they kill the boss the first time, or should we look at the entire population also? I argued that for most players, even mythic raiders, the general trend of the total mythic population is more representative of what a rogue should expect when playing mythic with his/her guild. That the whacky things that world first race guilds do is an exceptional behavior, and not the rule.

I will admit that I am a bit stubborn. I have this notion that most players do not have multiple highly equipped characters and that even on the hardest difficulty, people just tend to play with their friends, not a specific class. I am a bit sappy sometimes. I do not apologize for that.

So now it is a week later. I was able to capture the first week of data, and now we have another week to compare it to. If indeed rogues are being sat, we might see at least some movement if the trend is significant. Keep in mind, the data is still very low quality, particularly on the later fights. There aren’t many guilds that have cleared the any mythic content, never mind the later bosses, and less of them have uploaded the data to warcraftlogs. We have to be very careful about what we can say with the data at hand.

Here’s the data. The overall data shows that rogues have 8.8% (1998 total) representation in the first week and 9.2% (4899 total) the second week. Rogues total about 6.6% of the population of level 100 US characters according to realmpop. This, as a side note, continues the trend of apparent overrepresentation of rogues in high end content from MoP.

So, let’s dig into the fights. Numbers are rogues as percent and (total).

1st week – 7.0% (59)
2nd week – 9.1% (390)

1st week – 3.7% (1)
2nd week – 8.9% (66)

1st week – 8.6% (1396)
2nd week – 8.8% (2751)

1st week – 7.3% (6)
2nd week – 10.5% (92)

1st week – no data
2nd week – 8.3% (1)

1st week – 8.8% (25)
2nd week – 9.4% (287)

1st week – 9.6% (515)
2nd week – 9.9% (1294)

We see that rogue representation APPEARS to have increased. I would caution that the numbers on all but bladefist were fairly small to begin with, which limits what we can say. And some of the later fights on the second week are still extremely low in numbers.

What it does SEEM to say is that rogues are being used fairly widely in mythic, at levels beyond our overall class representation. Someone is being sat. It is just not rogues who are doing the sitting.

We have some problems here though, besides the low sample size, which may just have swung in our favor due to random chance. There were slight buffs to each spec’s niche moving into the second week, which could have incentivized more people to play their rogues. It could also be that more rogues were ran in the second week because they weren’t used for the progression fight. We can’t really say without armory datamining. It could also lend credence to the idea that groups with rogues were behind because they lack the dps for kills the first week, and another week of gearing lead the groups to second week kills. The difference between swapping a strong dps like windwalker in instead of a rogue would result in a small difference in raid dps, much smaller than that of simple getting a week’s worth of gear for your entire raid.

One thing that I want to make sure to be clear, these are still very low number samples. And after talking with members of the high end raiding community, we may end up seeing the true impact on the next raid. The rogues that are geared up now and progressing right now may only be doing so simply because they haven’t had time to level and gear an alt to sub out their geared rogue. As the tier continues, more alts can be geared to reasonable levels before progression begins anew in January on the next raid. As such, representation may be a lagging indicator.

This is all firmly in the realm of speculation. No matter how well reasoned or authoritative the source. If it turns out that confidence in rogues does not meet expectations, we may see a drop as players switch to other specs for the next tier. But we also have conflating factors on the horizon as well. The new tier will likely bring out more tuning adjustment, as well as the very important tier bonuses and other itemization quirks to which all the classes are balanced against. For instance, the tier bonuses for combat are projected to be on the order of 5%. Where that stands in relation to other dps specs remains to be seen.

And to absolutely clear, there is no evidence, nor any speculation from high end raiders that you should be sitting rogues for the average guild. If you are in your average guild and killing tougher bosses maybe one or two a week and progressing through normal, heroic and into mythic, you need not be concerned. Your progression will happen naturally as the result of gear inflation and as your raid gets better experienced on the fights. The vast majority of rogues need not be concerned with getting sat unless you have a guild leader who thinks he’s a world first raider and treats the raid members as such. (This simply indicates that you should probably change guilds.) This is something that many high end raiders will say themselves. If you are in an average guild, don’t worry about it.

For next time, I’ll continue to look at representation as the tier progresses, but I’ll also take a look at recruitment trends.

What we do have now, is what appears to be solid representation, and according to the latest hotfixes, and the watchful eyes of the devs, a reason to be hopeful for the future. Take heart rogues, and have a happy holiday.

Happy Stabbing! 🙂

Want to talk about this post? Head over to its dedicated forum thread!


6.0.2 Changes & Rogues

This guide was written by Sativ. If you’d like to seem more by Sativ check him out on Youtube and on Twitter.

The 6.0.2 Warlords of Draenor Pre-Patch is here: There have been drastic changes to the game in this patch. So lets start with breaking down the changes to the game in general. Then move onto RoguesThere will be a Video covering all this linked at the END of these posts.

Game Mechanic Changes: MoP->6.0

Stat Squish: 500k~ Health Pools to 70k~

  • Basically this means health pools and damage have been squished down to early Cataclysm numbers.
  • While this might feel confusing at lvl 90. Health is considerably higher at level 100. So don’t get too comfortable.

Game Responsiveness: Faster Server to Client Interaction

  • In the past: data was sent and received in batches of 400ms(Milliseconds)

Basically in a situation where you Gouge a druid Cyclone Cast: There’s a 400 millisecond window of opportunity where your action and his action can both be registered at the same time. Leaving you Cycloned and the Druid Gouged.

  • In 6.0.2 and onward: Data is accepted as soon as it arrives. Which is generally 1-10ms according to Celestalon

This means it’s still possible for that situation to occur. Only it’s much less likely
It also effects other players position on your client in relation to their position on the server. Making those ‘I’m on top of you but out of range?’ situations rarer.
Additional Information about how this effects various aspects of Gameplay can be found here (By NCPRicket)

Agility in Warlords: No longer grants Critical Strike Chance, Less Attack Power 

  • In warlords all main stats have been homogenized to be slightly less effective and shifted some of that strength into secondary stats.

Each point of Agility or Strength now grants 1 Attack Power (down from 2). 
Attack Power now increases Weapon Damage at a rate of 1 DPS per 3.5 Attack Power (up from 1 DPS per 14 Attack Power)

Hit and Expertise Removed: 

  • All Hit and Expertise on your gear has been turned into Haste
  • All characters now have a 100% chance to hit, 0% chance to be dodged, 3% chance to be parried,
  • Dual Wielding still imposes a 19% chance to miss, to balance it with two-handed weapon use.*

*This only effects auto attacks.

Changes to PvP

  • Base Resilience has been reduced to 0%.
  • Battle Fatigue has been reduced to 20% (down from 60%).
  • Critical Damage and Critical Heals in PvP combat now deal 150% of the normal spell/ability effects (down from 200%)
  • Multistrikes can only Trigger Once instead of Twice

Racial Traits
There’s been a lot of changes to Racial in Warlords of Draenor I suggest you view the patch notes, as they would clog up this post.

I’ve also made my own Video about Racials from a PvP Rogue Perspective


  • They have removed the direct combat benefits of Professions.
  • There is no Best Profession for PvP or PvE anymore

Well that’s the basics of things you’ll notice for the next month at level 90 in relation to Game Mechanics. Lets move onto Rogues.

Rogue Related Changes: MoP->6.0

Combo Points

  • Combo Points for Rogues are now shared across all targets and they are no longer lost when switching targets.
  • Redirect has been removed.

At long last brothers and sisters- we’ve got combos not restricted to a single target. Much like any skilled Assassin.

Abilities Pruning

  • Disarm Trap has been removed(*).
  • Mind Numbing Poison has been Removed(*)
  • Shadow Blades has been removed.
  • Shadow Walk has been removed.
  • Fan of Knives is no longer available to Combat Rogues.
  • Rupture is no longer available to Combat Rogues.
  • Tricks of the Trade now has no energy cost and no longer increases damage caused by the target by 15%.

(*)All Similar effects have been stripped from other Classes

Ability Refinement

  • Swiftblade’s Cunning now grants 5% Haste & Multstrike (instead of 10% attack speed)
  • A lot of Passive effects you’re used to seeing in your spell book have been merged into the abilities they effected
  • Examples include Find Weakness, Master of Subtlety, Venomous Wounds, and Blindside.
  • Unless otherwise stated in Patch Notes. All Rogue passives remain intact.

Talents and Glyphs

  • Subterfuge has been reworked

Instead of allowing you to remain in stealth. You instead gain access to your Stealth Skill-set for 3 seconds. Making you vulnerable to peels. But stills relatively easy to get your opener, or multiple openers off

  • Burst of Speed now 30 Energy. (up from 15)

This makes Burst of Speed way weaker when you tunnel vision a target. But still extremely strong for restealthing, or escaping enemies

  • Deadly Throw only interrupts at 5 combo points
  • Cheat Death now procs at 7% (down from 10%)
  • Leeching Poison’s Shiv effect was nerfed but the direct healing was raised by 5%
  • Paralytic Poison replaced by Internal Bleeding which places a strong bleed on the target when they are stunned with Kidney Shot.
  • As for Glyphs we do not have access to the three new options. So keep utilizing what you have been in the past, or explore new options!

Specialization Changes
Specs generally play the same with the exception of damage being shifted to or from abilties, changing the priority of them. This thread is aimed at covering what’s changed. Not Explaining how to play each spec.


  • Rupture Ticks vs Poisoned Targets now have 100% Chance to Generate 10 Energy
  • Envenom now increases Poison Application rate by 30% (up from 15%)
  • Wound Poison’s Direct Damage is higher than Deadly Poison. Making it more burst Damage

These three changes alone make Assassination a lot smoother and comfortable to play. Once you gain access to Perks at level 100 the spec becomes one of strongest and easier to play of the three Rogue Specs


  • Main Gauche now hits with your Off-Hand Weapon. Making two slow 2.6 weapons important for Combat Rogues
  • Revealing Strike no longer advances Bandit’s Guile

in the past players would use Revealing Strike to quickly advance to Deep Insight as it was a cheaper alternative to Sinister Strike

  • Killing Spree no Longer Increases all Damage done by 50%

Killing Sprees damage has been increased to compensate. Though this hurts combat’s overall pressure out side of Deep Insight All in all combat has a very similar flow to it. Though It depends a lot more on Deep Insight now due to the Killing Spree ‘nerf’


  • Sinister Calling: Now causes successful Multistrikes with Backstab or Ambush to advance your Bleeds by 2 seconds, casusing them to instantly deal damage
  • Ambush can now be used from any position. Yes that means FACE AMBUSH! HIYA!
  • Backstab’s positional requirement has been loosened. Though still can’t be used from the front
  • [Cloak and Dagger] once again is working with Shadow Dance
  • Rupture’s Damage is a lot stronger and should be utilized for more than Sanguinary Vein

All in all the only note worthy change here is how much Damage Rupture deals… It’s very strong at level 100 and I assume the same for 90s.

As this guide is designed to be quick and simple: I’ve also included a video covering the entirety of these posts as well as a bit more:

-This video is going live Tuesday the 14th- Though is viewable from the direct link exclusive for the next few hours here on Ravenholdt.

Thanks for Reading.